The Chainlink

What do you expect riding a bike?

Regardless of what may happen at a CM ride or messengers riding downtown for work or my ranting on this site, do people really think that is RIGHT or WRONG. Really ... can you justify or a least explain this to me so I understand what makes this ok ?

Monday 10am
.... On my way home from coffee this morning I was coming down Foster Eastbound with my 10 speed pacing with a group of random riders between Clark and Broadway. So coming the other way (westbound) is some guy loaded with a giant pack and chain. Out of nowhere, literally, he just swerves into the lane of traffic on his left. No signal, no head turn, just boom, he is direct in front of this car who needs to chirp her brakes to avoid contact and then he swerves back not even trying to cross. Ok fine, bad move maybe, but when he started cussing ( i mean big time) out this chick who did a fine job of NOT hitting him depsite the fact he basically was on top of her already, I told him 'what do you expect swerving into traffic like that'. Ok, he is pissed at me, I am used to it. Cussed me out too. I kept riding, no point in trying to argue about it. I kind wished he'd started a fight too but not my luck. There are unembellished facts of this particular situation. 


So ....


Why did his cuss that chick out, for not hitting him. Why cuss me out ? For telling him the obvious ? Had the driver hit the cyclist, who's fault is it really in an instance like this or an instance where someone just flying through a stopsign or traffic light when there is a considerable amount of traffic and they are either unaware of you or already in motion with no consideration. Why don't people fear cars trucks like I do ? Is riding a bike all about having some sort of ego against cars ???? Hey the world may be better off without them, but that is not reality at the moment. I'd hate to have to go to the hospital on the back of a bike trailer .... Anyone comment or let this die with the rest of my threads  ????

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Permalink Reply by Tank-Ridin' Ryan on June 1, 2010 at 10:37am
Thank you Doug.

I was going to post a response when I first saw Howard's reply, but I knew I wouldn't have been as civil.

notoriousDUG said:
Don't post things like this; they will one day cause me to have a stroke.
Regardless of how you feel about a persons choice to drive instead of ride it is not only legal but socially acceptable and if they are following the rules of the road, paying attention and not otherwise acting the jerk really there is no justified reason to bitch them out. People who cut cars off and then bitch at them are the people who are making it harder for us all.
I drive frequently, my work leaves me with no choice, and I work very hard to pay attention to and be nice to cyclists but even as an avid cyclist I am, far to frequently, driven to new heights of rage by cyclists doing something exactly as described above. Don't run a stop sign and then curse at me for almost missing you as a slammed on the brakes throwing every part and tool in the back of my van out of the shelves and on the floor; you're supposed to stop too asshat.

H3N3 said:
Playing devil's advocate-- some people might think the woman in the car was being socially and morally irresponsible by using an obscene amount of resources and contributing in the greatest possible way to environmental destruction just to get from A to B, and had no right to be in that car in the first place. Some people might think a 2 ton hunk of metal with the power of a huge team of horses has no place in a dense urban environment, and should be prepared to stop for anything.

cutifly said:
I am kind of wanting people who DO NOT agree with me on this to find some way and justify this type of behavior so I can gain new insight and perspective. That is what I really need from someone besides being called names, how will I ever learn how to become a better person and a better biker ?
Permalink Reply by Dr. Doom on June 1, 2010 at 10:52am
I don't even know how to drive, so I'm not much of a defender of motorized transit. That said, I don't take anyone too seriously when they pound their chests self-righteously over the evils of cars (not accusing anyone in particular of doing this, by the way) unless they also eat a vegetarian diet, avoid all unnecessary flight, avoid overheating or cooling their homes and go way out of their way to avoid buying products that are shipped from one place to another by truck or boat, etc. Cars are pretty bad, especially because they make sensible urban design so difficult, but they're hardly any kind of unique evil and avoiding them doesn't make someone a paragon of green morality.
Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on June 1, 2010 at 11:12am
Tony Adams said:
notoriousDUG said:
Don't post things like this; they will one day cause me to have a stroke.
Regardless of how you feel about a persons choice to drive instead of ride it is not only legal but socially acceptable and if they are following the rules of the road, paying attention and not otherwise acting the jerk really there is no justified reason to bitch them out. People who cut cars off and then bitch at them are the people who are making it harder for us all.
...

I agree that we all need to try to get along out there. Peace and love and forgiveness will do us more good in the long run than war and hate and holding a grudge. Cussing out a driver when we do something stupid is counterproductive and as far as I'm concerned, unacceptable.

But "legal" and "socially acceptable" are not valid excuses for wrecking the planet and doing the other harms and damage that motor vehicles cause. At at least one point and place in human history all of these things where both legal and socially acceptable:
  • genocide
  • slavery
  • cannibalism
  • torture
We look back at those times and places in horror. Someday if humanity survives long enough, people will look back at our collective behavior with nearly the same horror and disgust.

OK, so both you and H3N3 want me to stroke out...

Are you seriously going to compare my use of a motor vehicle to genocide and slavery?

REALLY!?

A few things:

1. I to am annoyed by people who drive when there is no need for it but when you see a motorist how do you know if the fall into that category? This is, obviously, excluding the lone Trixie in an H3....

2. Who are you, or who am I, to determine what conditions make for justifiable use of a motor vehicle? What you deem to short a trip may not be to short a trip for me to justify a cars use; same goes for amount of cargo to be carried or any of a million other variables. Forcing one iron clad set of conditions on people tends to turn a lot of folks off on getting more into biking. I know that when I first got into riding as transportation I would have been soured by an attitude like yours towards the driving I still did/do but I was lucky enough to have met cyclists who believe that even if it's only twice a week you choose to ride over drive it's still a better decision.

3. Genocide!? REALLY!? Marginalize great disasters much?
Permalink Reply by Doug Haynes on June 1, 2010 at 11:12am
I wouldn't take it to seriously, personally I believe it is Howard is attempting to make life easier for the Chainlink moderators by causing me to stroke out.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:
Thank you Doug.

I was going to post a response when I first saw Howard's reply, but I knew I wouldn't have been as civil.

notoriousDUG said:
Don't post things like this; they will one day cause me to have a stroke.
Regardless of how you feel about a persons choice to drive instead of ride it is not only legal but socially acceptable and if they are following the rules of the road, paying attention and not otherwise acting the jerk really there is no justified reason to bitch them out. People who cut cars off and then bitch at them are the people who are making it harder for us all.
I drive frequently, my work leaves me with no choice, and I work very hard to pay attention to and be nice to cyclists but even as an avid cyclist I am, far to frequently, driven to new heights of rage by cyclists doing something exactly as described above. Don't run a stop sign and then curse at me for almost missing you as a slammed on the brakes throwing every part and tool in the back of my van out of the shelves and on the floor; you're supposed to stop too asshat.

H3N3 said:
Playing devil's advocate-- some people might think the woman in the car was being socially and morally irresponsible by using an obscene amount of resources and contributing in the greatest possible way to environmental destruction just to get from A to B, and had no right to be in that car in the first place. Some people might think a 2 ton hunk of metal with the power of a huge team of horses has no place in a dense urban environment, and should be prepared to stop for anything.

cutifly said:
I am kind of wanting people who DO NOT agree with me on this to find some way and justify this type of behavior so I can gain new insight and perspective. That is what I really need from someone besides being called names, how will I ever learn how to become a better person and a better biker ?
Permalink Reply by Tank-Ridin' Ryan on June 1, 2010 at 11:15am
Tony Adams said:
...
  • cannibalism
  • ...

Hey! Don't knock it until you've tried it! (I personally haven't; hence me not knocking it.)
Permalink Reply by Tony Adams on June 1, 2010 at 11:36am
notoriousDUG said:
Tony Adams said:
notoriousDUG said:
Don't post things like this; they will one day cause me to have a stroke.
Regardless of how you feel about a persons choice to drive instead of ride it is not only legal but socially acceptable and if they are following the rules of the road, paying attention and not otherwise acting the jerk really there is no justified reason to bitch them out. People who cut cars off and then bitch at them are the people who are making it harder for us all.
...

I agree that we all need to try to get along out there. Peace and love and forgiveness will do us more good in the long run than war and hate and holding a grudge. Cussing out a driver when we do something stupid is counterproductive and as far as I'm concerned, unacceptable.

But "legal" and "socially acceptable" are not valid excuses for wrecking the planet and doing the other harms and damage that motor vehicles cause. At at least one point and place in human history all of these things where both legal and socially acceptable:
  • genocide
  • slavery
  • cannibalism
  • torture
We look back at those times and places in horror. Someday if humanity survives long enough, people will look back at our collective behavior with nearly the same horror and disgust.

OK, so both you and H3N3 want me to stroke out...

Are you seriously going to compare my use of a motor vehicle to genocide and slavery?

REALLY!?

A few things:

1. I to am annoyed by people who drive when there is no need for it but when you see a motorist how do you know if the fall into that category? This is, obviously, excluding the lone Trixie in an H3....

2. Who are you, or who am I, to determine what conditions make for justifiable use of a motor vehicle? What you deem to short a trip may not be to short a trip for me to justify a cars use; same goes for amount of cargo to be carried or any of a million other variables. Forcing one iron clad set of conditions on people tends to turn a lot of folks off on getting more into biking. I know that when I first got into riding as transportation I would have been soured by an attitude like yours towards the driving I still did/do but I was lucky enough to have met cyclists who believe that even if it's only twice a week you choose to ride over drive it's still a better decision.

I agree that in actual daily practice, trying to make a determination of what conditions make for justifiable use of a motor vehicle is pretty much impossible. I'm not suggesting that such a practice is of much use. I'm just saying that, given what we now know, in most cases, it is probably morally wrong to use motor vehicle. Trying to justify it is asking to get mired down in a morass of slippery slopes. I'm sure there are tons of cases where it is morally justified (ambulance takes baby to hospital etc), but at the other end of the spectrum there are probably a lot more cases where it isn't (driving to the corner for a pack of smokes). Most driving, including mine, falls somewhere in between. The only point I was trying to make in this thread is that "legal" and "socially acceptable" do not make something right.

notoriousDUG said:
3. Genocide!? REALLY!? Marginalize great disasters much?

40k Americans die each year on our roads as a result of motor vehicle "accidents" so yes, I think a comparison to genocide is apt. We as a society have decided that human life is worth less than cheap and easy transportation.

If we include the damage from climate change, then I don't think I am the one doing the marginalizing.

My list was simply an attempt to illustrate that over time, we change our minds about what is legal and what is socially acceptable.
Permalink Reply by Tank-Ridin' Ryan on June 1, 2010 at 1:06pm
LOL

notoriousDUG said:
I wouldn't take it to seriously, personally I believe it is Howard is attempting to make life easier for the Chainlink moderators by causing me to stroke out.

Tank-Ridin' Ryan said:
Thank you Doug.

I was going to post a response when I first saw Howard's reply, but I knew I wouldn't have been as civil.

notoriousDUG said:
Don't post things like this; they will one day cause me to have a stroke.
Regardless of how you feel about a persons choice to drive instead of ride it is not only legal but socially acceptable and if they are following the rules of the road, paying attention and not otherwise acting the jerk really there is no justified reason to bitch them out. People who cut cars off and then bitch at them are the people who are making it harder for us all.
I drive frequently, my work leaves me with no choice, and I work very hard to pay attention to and be nice to cyclists but even as an avid cyclist I am, far to frequently, driven to new heights of rage by cyclists doing something exactly as described above. Don't run a stop sign and then curse at me for almost missing you as a slammed on the brakes throwing every part and tool in the back of my van out of the shelves and on the floor; you're supposed to stop too asshat.

H3N3 said:
Playing devil's advocate-- some people might think the woman in the car was being socially and morally irresponsible by using an obscene amount of resources and contributing in the greatest possible way to environmental destruction just to get from A to B, and had no right to be in that car in the first place. Some people might think a 2 ton hunk of metal with the power of a huge team of horses has no place in a dense urban environment, and should be prepared to stop for anything.

cutifly said:
I am kind of wanting people who DO NOT agree with me on this to find some way and justify this type of behavior so I can gain new insight and perspective. That is what I really need from someone besides being called names, how will I ever learn how to become a better person and a better biker ?
Permalink Reply by Jack on June 1, 2010 at 1:08pm
As a cyclist, I like to identify with the community as it is a healthy mode of transportation that is fun, rewarding, and most people are generally good humans. However, I do not agree with those who are bent on trying to convince the world that all motorists are bad people who are destroying the environment.

I cycle, I take the CTA, I drive my GMC SUV that gets about 18mpg. I drive respectful of others in cars, on bikes, or beating the pavement with their shoes. I cycle and walk the same way.

I don't have to prove to anyone that it is "okay" for me to drive my gas guzzling SUV around town if I want to get a gallon of milk and burn a gallon of gas anymore than someone else has to justify their "need" for a $1,000 wheelset on their $4,000 bike. We are free to spend our money as we see fit. I don't have to like your taste in music, food, or anything else. That is one of the reasons it is great to be American. Seeing how Memorial Day honoring the military personnel who have provided this freedom to you was yesterday, I find it amazing that people are calling out those who do not have the same beliefs as you. Yet you are free to do so.

America, land of the free.
Permalink Reply by heather s on June 1, 2010 at 5:01pm
I don't think I (or you) have the right to use up infinite amounts of fossil fuels (particularly when running simple errands), because there are other people who will be affected by that decision. Should they not have the right to a safe passage along the public way, and the right to clean air? Shouldn't everyone have that freedom?

There are different ways of thinking about what freedom is. Some people think about it purely in terms of individual rights - e.g. 'I have the right to use as many natural resources as I can pay for.' I think we Americans sometimes forget that we also have responsibilities to other people. To me, freedom doesn't mean much if it's not shared by all.

I find it sad that you have such a narrow vision of what 'America' means. We honor the military fallen on Memorial Day because they died for our right to consume as much stuff as we want?


Jack said:
As a cyclist, I like to identify with the community as it is a healthy mode of transportation that is fun, rewarding, and most people are generally good humans. However, I do not agree with those who are bent on trying to convince the world that all motorists are bad people who are destroying the environment.

I cycle, I take the CTA, I drive my GMC SUV that gets about 18mpg. I drive respectful of others in cars, on bikes, or beating the pavement with their shoes. I cycle and walk the same way.

I don't have to prove to anyone that it is "okay" for me to drive my gas guzzling SUV around town if I want to get a gallon of milk and burn a gallon of gas anymore than someone else has to justify their "need" for a $1,000 wheelset on their $4,000 bike. We are free to spend our money as we see fit. I don't have to like your taste in music, food, or anything else. That is one of the reasons it is great to be American. Seeing how Memorial Day honoring the military personnel who have provided this freedom to you was yesterday, I find it amazing that people are calling out those who do not have the same beliefs as you. Yet you are free to do so.

America, land of the free.
Permalink Reply by Gort 12-mile Pinklegneep on June 1, 2010 at 7:51pm
Tony Adams said:

I agree that we all need to try to get along out there. Peace and love and forgiveness will do us more good in the long run than war and hate and holding a grudge. Cussing out a driver when we do something stupid is counterproductive and as far as I'm concerned, unacceptable.

But "legal" and "socially acceptable" are not valid excuses for wrecking the planet and doing the other harms and damage that motor vehicles cause. At at least one point and place in human history all of these things where both legal and socially acceptable:
  • genocide
  • slavery
  • cannibalism
  • torture
We look back at those times and places in horror. Someday if humanity survives long enough, people will look back at our collective behavior with nearly the same horror and disgust.

I'm pretty sure conflating a personal display of bad manners and comporting oneself irresponsibly with atrocities and war crimes is listed in the DSM-IV
Permalink Reply by Tony Adams on June 1, 2010 at 9:11pm
Peenworm Grubologist said:
Tony Adams said:

I agree that we all need to try to get along out there. Peace and love and forgiveness will do us more good in the long run than war and hate and holding a grudge. Cussing out a driver when we do something stupid is counterproductive and as far as I'm concerned, unacceptable. But "legal" and "socially acceptable" are not valid excuses for wrecking the planet and doing the other harms and damage that motor vehicles cause. At at least one point and place in human history all of these things where both legal and socially acceptable:
  • genocide
  • slavery
  • cannibalism
  • torture
We look back at those times and places in horror. Someday if humanity survives long enough, people will look back at our collective behavior with nearly the same horror and disgust.

I'm pretty sure conflating a personal display of bad manners and comporting oneself irresponsibly with atrocities and war crimes is listed in the DSM-IV

Peen,
Did you read the whole thread? I'm conflating wrecking the planet with the items on that list, not yelling at drivers.

Of course, that may be listed in the DSM-IV also.

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