Mayor wants to increase fines for reckless cyclists, motorists - The Chainlink2024-03-29T12:22:42Zhttps://thechainlink.org/forum/topics/mayor-wants-to-increase-fines-for-reckless-cyclists-motorists?id=2211490%3ATopic%3A676336&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHey guys, although I don't kn…tag:thechainlink.org,2013-08-16:2211490:Comment:7417392013-08-16T00:29:04.833ZJulie Aberman (Hochstadter)https://thechainlink.org/profile/JulieHochstadter
<p>Hey guys, although I don't know what yet is my fine, I got a red light ticket this morning on my bike. So think twice now about going through reds....</p>
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<p>Here is my proof.</p>
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<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/35249673?profile=original" target="_self"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/35249673?profile=original" width="480" class="align-full"/></a></p>
<p>Hey guys, although I don't know what yet is my fine, I got a red light ticket this morning on my bike. So think twice now about going through reds....</p>
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<p>Here is my proof.</p>
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<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/35249673?profile=original" target="_self"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/35249673?profile=original" width="480" class="align-full"/></a></p> I just want to say I was tryi…tag:thechainlink.org,2013-06-08:2211490:Comment:7034552013-06-08T01:40:55.158ZSlowCoachOnTheRoadhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/SlowCoachOnTheRoad
<p>I just want to say I was trying on a more conservative position on this matter as I do sometimes feel this way. But after reading your responses and thinking more about it in recent days biking to work, I must admit my argument had its weak points - I liked the idea of treating the red light as a stop sign; I agree that going forward on a red light (after stopping to make sure there are no cars coming either way) increases our safety; I agree that the lights exist primarily to provide…</p>
<p>I just want to say I was trying on a more conservative position on this matter as I do sometimes feel this way. But after reading your responses and thinking more about it in recent days biking to work, I must admit my argument had its weak points - I liked the idea of treating the red light as a stop sign; I agree that going forward on a red light (after stopping to make sure there are no cars coming either way) increases our safety; I agree that the lights exist primarily to provide safety from motor vehicles. I still think there is something to say for some bikers' behaviors leading motorists not to trust us anymore, but I also think their psychology comes partly from being in a car - it is a large metal suit that protects them nicely (they think) and increases their narcissism and feelings of entitlement. I read this in a psychology magazine - this has been tested and shown to be true.<br/> <br/> <cite>SlowCoachOnTheRoad said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/mayor-wants-to-increase-fines-for-reckless-cyclists-motorists?commentId=2211490%3AComment%3A700885#2211490Comment700885"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I can see why some cyclists don't like the idea of sitting at a red light - they are intellectualizing their illegal behaviors - it is illegal to go through a red light. The law exists to promote safety on the road, including for pedestrians who have or should have the right to experience a walk across the road as "their space" too, just as we like to experience our bike lanes as "ours," and cars' space as "theirs." While cyclists who go through red lights, and they are probably a majority from what I've seen each morning on my way to work, think they are outside of the law, they fail to see how their narcissism (a disorder when in serious dimensions and always accompanied by a sense of entitlement - the sense that I am above others or possess more value than others) negatively affects others (by definition, narcissists have no empathy and can always justify their behavior). But the reality is that if we want a right to "own the road" too (which I think we all agree we do) we must agree to basic rules of conduct on the road. It is amazing how people sometimes want rights but don't want, to quote Spiderman's uncle, a sense of responsibility that goes with them (okay, his uncle was talking about "great power"). It is immaterial, as bikers like to state to justify their sense of entitlement, whether accidents are likely when we go through red lights, or that we are not very likely to hit pedestrians crossing the road. Rather, the reason for the rule is to endow us with a sense of equality with cars, which surely is what we want (and the more we have it, the more others will use bikes and put those cars increasingly out of circulation). If we act like kids who pretend that the rules of the road only apply to cars, we are in effect saying that we are not on their level, that we don't have the same legitimacy. I work in a highly dangerous environment in inner cities working with kids in gangs and I see all the time the effects of a human inability to curtail impulses, and also a remarkable inability to see how two groups can co-exist (gang mentality is pretty much like tribal mentality, that we all abandoned a few thousand years ago, although countries still often have it). We are the bikers, they are the car drivers, we can't co-exist, we are special, they are shit. This is no different than the gang mentality I see all the time (although it leads to less children dying). BUT violence historically has declined in our cities because humans increasingly succeeded to curtail their impulses so that not every insult led to a murder. Surely bikers can contain theirs long enough to wait at a red light? Though I go through about 60 light intersections on my way to work, the chances of a red light happening are maybe 8 out of those. Big deal. Time to relax and catch one's breath. But there is a more dangerous psychology at play. If you take on a more aggressive stance, then car drivers won't care about you. The chances that they'll skim past you rather than take their full 3 feet to the left of you will increase if they don't care about you. The city is doing all it can right now to paint more lanes and fine more bad car driver behaviors, so why can't we take some responsibility for our actions? We love to accuse the car drivers for everything under the sun, and they often deserve it, but now that we have a chance to prove that we are on average careful and considerate, bikers don't want the opportunity to prove that. Typical ironic human nature. Typical moronic humans. However I have seen again and again how bikers (yes, US!) have irritated car drivers with their behaviors, but they don't like to take responsibility for the bad behaviors that car drivers then, in turn, will take out on us (including us bikers not directly responsible for others' behaviors). Next time you see ghost bicycles, consider the possibility that the careless behavior of the car driver may just to some small degree have been the result of some of you jumping in and out traffic on your bikes and zipping through red lights and pissing off the car drivers. A fine sounds like a good idea if it means all transportation users follow equal rules.</p>
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</blockquote> So, the city will be starting…tag:thechainlink.org,2013-06-04:2211490:Comment:7014112013-06-04T18:28:37.155ZWe all have an inner Beast...https://thechainlink.org/profile/MannyFuentes
<p>So, the city will be starting to enforce the laws that are already on the books, we will just be paying more for being caught.</p>
<p>Wow. (note the sarcasm)</p>
<p>So, they will just NOW start doing their jobs? Were they not enforcing them before? How about if they start enforcing the laws that the drivers are breaking first !?!</p>
<p>I believe that their vehicles are a bigger danger to the general public, than me and my 50 pound mountain bike traveling at 16 mph (what I am now up to…</p>
<p>So, the city will be starting to enforce the laws that are already on the books, we will just be paying more for being caught.</p>
<p>Wow. (note the sarcasm)</p>
<p>So, they will just NOW start doing their jobs? Were they not enforcing them before? How about if they start enforcing the laws that the drivers are breaking first !?!</p>
<p>I believe that their vehicles are a bigger danger to the general public, than me and my 50 pound mountain bike traveling at 16 mph (what I am now up to during my commute to and from work). </p>
<p>I mean, dang, unless I plow into a 75 yr old lady, while I am going downhill, will I actually run the risk of killing someone !</p>
<p>I think that a more likely scenario would be me going home (on my bike) and yelling at some dumb-butt with their headphones on crossing against the light and scaring them into a speeding car that is trying to get past me.</p>
<p>Does anyone disagree?</p>
<p>Either way, now they will have to enforce the bicycist-have-to-wear-a-helmet-law. Lookout !</p>
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<p>Respectfully,</p>
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<p>Manny</p> Vocabulary term for the day:…tag:thechainlink.org,2013-06-04:2211490:Comment:7008542013-06-04T03:09:37.152Zh' Zerocatshttps://thechainlink.org/profile/H3N3
<div class="definition">Vocabulary term for the day:</div>
<div class="definition"><strong><em>Internalized Oppression</em></strong> <br></br><em>the process by which a member of an oppressed group comes to accept and live out the inaccurate myths and stereotypes applied to the group.</em></div>
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<p>I would venture to say that a fair number of us know the story of how each ghost bike got there in painful detail, and out of the 18 or so that have been placed since I've…</p>
<div class="definition">Vocabulary term for the day:</div>
<div class="definition"><strong><em>Internalized Oppression</em></strong> <br/><em>the process by which a member of an oppressed group comes to accept and live out the inaccurate myths and stereotypes applied to the group.</em></div>
<div class="definition"></div>
<p>I would venture to say that a fair number of us know the story of how each ghost bike got there in painful detail, and out of the 18 or so that have been placed since I've been following, I can think of three or four that weren't primarily due to gross negligence on the driver's part.</p>
<p>And to the exceptions-- we've built and accepted a transportation infrastructure that punishes an error in judgement with instant on-the-spot execution by car. You may think that's OK, but I don't.</p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>SlowCoachOnTheRoad said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/mayor-wants-to-increase-fines-for-reckless-cyclists-motorists?page=12&commentId=2211490%3AComment%3A700772&x=1#2211490Comment700885"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p> Next time you see ghost bicycles, consider the possibility that the careless behavior of the car driver may just to some small degree have been the result of some of you jumping in and out traffic on your bikes and zipping through red lights and pissing off the car drivers. A fine sounds like a good idea if it means all transportation users follow equal rules.</p>
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</blockquote> Exactly. Either stop at a st…tag:thechainlink.org,2013-06-04:2211490:Comment:7007722013-06-04T02:07:25.341ZMr. Ray Joe Hallhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/MrRayJoeHall
<p>Exactly. Either stop at a stop sign or don't. Wait at a red light or not. Who cares? But if you don't yield to the right of way - cyclist, pedestrian, or car-driver - you're an asshole. Can't we just sum it all up as simply as this?<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Jeremy said:…</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/mayor-wants-to-increase-fines-for-reckless-cyclists-motorists?id=2211490%3ATopic%3A676336&page=12#2211490Comment700895"></blockquote>
<p>Exactly. Either stop at a stop sign or don't. Wait at a red light or not. Who cares? But if you don't yield to the right of way - cyclist, pedestrian, or car-driver - you're an asshole. Can't we just sum it all up as simply as this?<br/> <br/> <cite>Jeremy said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/mayor-wants-to-increase-fines-for-reckless-cyclists-motorists?id=2211490%3ATopic%3A676336&page=12#2211490Comment700895"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">?</div>
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</blockquote> ?tag:thechainlink.org,2013-06-04:2211490:Comment:7008952013-06-04T02:03:04.530ZJeremyhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/JeremyJoslin
?
? I can see why some cyclists d…tag:thechainlink.org,2013-06-04:2211490:Comment:7008852013-06-04T01:08:34.241ZSlowCoachOnTheRoadhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/SlowCoachOnTheRoad
<p>I can see why some cyclists don't like the idea of sitting at a red light - they are intellectualizing their illegal behaviors - it is illegal to go through a red light. The law exists to promote safety on the road, including for pedestrians who have or should have the right to experience a walk across the road as "their space" too, just as we like to experience our bike lanes as "ours," and cars' space as "theirs." While cyclists who go through red lights, and they are probably a majority…</p>
<p>I can see why some cyclists don't like the idea of sitting at a red light - they are intellectualizing their illegal behaviors - it is illegal to go through a red light. The law exists to promote safety on the road, including for pedestrians who have or should have the right to experience a walk across the road as "their space" too, just as we like to experience our bike lanes as "ours," and cars' space as "theirs." While cyclists who go through red lights, and they are probably a majority from what I've seen each morning on my way to work, think they are outside of the law, they fail to see how their narcissism (a disorder when in serious dimensions and always accompanied by a sense of entitlement - the sense that I am above others or possess more value than others) negatively affects others (by definition, narcissists have no empathy and can always justify their behavior). But the reality is that if we want a right to "own the road" too (which I think we all agree we do) we must agree to basic rules of conduct on the road. It is amazing how people sometimes want rights but don't want, to quote Spiderman's uncle, a sense of responsibility that goes with them (okay, his uncle was talking about "great power"). It is immaterial, as bikers like to state to justify their sense of entitlement, whether accidents are likely when we go through red lights, or that we are not very likely to hit pedestrians crossing the road. Rather, the reason for the rule is to endow us with a sense of equality with cars, which surely is what we want (and the more we have it, the more others will use bikes and put those cars increasingly out of circulation). If we act like kids who pretend that the rules of the road only apply to cars, we are in effect saying that we are not on their level, that we don't have the same legitimacy. I work in a highly dangerous environment in inner cities working with kids in gangs and I see all the time the effects of a human inability to curtail impulses, and also a remarkable inability to see how two groups can co-exist (gang mentality is pretty much like tribal mentality, that we all abandoned a few thousand years ago, although countries still often have it). We are the bikers, they are the car drivers, we can't co-exist, we are special, they are shit. This is no different than the gang mentality I see all the time (although it leads to less children dying). BUT violence historically has declined in our cities because humans increasingly succeeded to curtail their impulses so that not every insult led to a murder. Surely bikers can contain theirs long enough to wait at a red light? Though I go through about 60 light intersections on my way to work, the chances of a red light happening are maybe 8 out of those. Big deal. Time to relax and catch one's breath. But there is a more dangerous psychology at play. If you take on a more aggressive stance, then car drivers won't care about you. The chances that they'll skim past you rather than take their full 3 feet to the left of you will increase if they don't care about you. The city is doing all it can right now to paint more lanes and fine more bad car driver behaviors, so why can't we take some responsibility for our actions? We love to accuse the car drivers for everything under the sun, and they often deserve it, but now that we have a chance to prove that we are on average careful and considerate, bikers don't want the opportunity to prove that. Typical ironic human nature. Typical moronic humans. However I have seen again and again how bikers (yes, US!) have irritated car drivers with their behaviors, but they don't like to take responsibility for the bad behaviors that car drivers then, in turn, will take out on us (including us bikers not directly responsible for others' behaviors). Next time you see ghost bicycles, consider the possibility that the careless behavior of the car driver may just to some small degree have been the result of some of you jumping in and out traffic on your bikes and zipping through red lights and pissing off the car drivers. A fine sounds like a good idea if it means all transportation users follow equal rules.</p> Carter O'Brien said:
I'm st…tag:thechainlink.org,2013-05-15:2211490:Comment:6808642013-05-15T15:33:27.471ZShttps://thechainlink.org/profile/s2485df
<p><br></br> <br></br> <cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/mayor-wants-to-increase-fines-for-reckless-cyclists-motorists?page=12&commentId=2211490%3AComment%3A681110&x=1#2211490Comment681110"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I'm still keeping my eye open for a cop actually enforcing ANY traffic violations. All I see every day is the parking enforcement, which I am starting to suspect is the underlying motivation for everything…</p>
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<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Carter O'Brien said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/mayor-wants-to-increase-fines-for-reckless-cyclists-motorists?page=12&commentId=2211490%3AComment%3A681110&x=1#2211490Comment681110"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I'm still keeping my eye open for a cop actually enforcing ANY traffic violations. All I see every day is the parking enforcement, which I am starting to suspect is the underlying motivation for everything from permit parking to rush hour parking controls...</p>
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<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I've noticed that the U of C police in hyde park seem to be enforcing traffic laws moderately frequently. It seems to be a new thing but it's rather interesting.</p>
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</div> California. I've heard from…tag:thechainlink.org,2013-05-15:2211490:Comment:6811102013-05-15T13:41:12.750ZCarter O'Brienhttps://thechainlink.org/profile/CarterOBrien
<p>California. I've heard from a wide number of people across the state that they do ticket pedestrians, which means less jaywalking, which apparently leads to cars respecting the crosswalks and stopping for pedestrians in them.</p>
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<p>I'm still keeping my eye open for a cop actually enforcing ANY traffic violations. All I see every day is the parking enforcement, which I am starting to suspect is the underlying motivation for everything from permit parking to rush hour parking…</p>
<p>California. I've heard from a wide number of people across the state that they do ticket pedestrians, which means less jaywalking, which apparently leads to cars respecting the crosswalks and stopping for pedestrians in them.</p>
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<p>I'm still keeping my eye open for a cop actually enforcing ANY traffic violations. All I see every day is the parking enforcement, which I am starting to suspect is the underlying motivation for everything from permit parking to rush hour parking controls...<br/> <br/> <cite>David crZven 10.6 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/mayor-wants-to-increase-fines-for-reckless-cyclists-motorists?commentId=2211490%3AComment%3A680935&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2211490Comment680790"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>My Comment:</p>
<p>Where? Certainly NOT Chicago. ...<br/> <br/> <cite>carl whetherspoon said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/mayor-wants-to-increase-fines-for-reckless-cyclists-motorists?id=2211490%3ATopic%3A676336&page=12#2211490Comment680786"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I think this has a lot to do with the fact that cars will stop for pedestrians to cross busy streets at non-lighed intersections. It works both ways. Cars stop for people, people dont jaywalk. </p>
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</blockquote> My Comment:
Where? Certainly…tag:thechainlink.org,2013-05-14:2211490:Comment:6807902013-05-14T22:19:58.917ZCrazy David 84 Furlongshttps://thechainlink.org/profile/DavidcrZven
<p>My Comment:</p>
<p>Where? Certainly NOT Chicago. Just yesterday I needed to cross Lincoln at Warner. I had gotten off my bicycle and was a Pedestrian. Another Pedestrian was on the other side waiting to cross. Car after car zipped through in both directions even as I was clearing trying to cross. After 40 to 50 cars in each direction, I finally forced the issue. Stepping out with a purposeful step glaring at the car that was far enough away that they would still stop. I left a…</p>
<p>My Comment:</p>
<p>Where? Certainly NOT Chicago. Just yesterday I needed to cross Lincoln at Warner. I had gotten off my bicycle and was a Pedestrian. Another Pedestrian was on the other side waiting to cross. Car after car zipped through in both directions even as I was clearing trying to cross. After 40 to 50 cars in each direction, I finally forced the issue. Stepping out with a purposeful step glaring at the car that was far enough away that they would still stop. I left a safety margin to "bail" if the car didn't stop (although I might have had to leave the bike.....) but they did... glaring rather hard. And I then repeated the process (partially blocking the South bound lane) for the North Bound lane. Lots of angry glares from Cars. But guess what, I was clearly and fully in the right. I have the same problem at Balmoral and Nagle crossing Nagle. When I hear Car drivers complain about Bicycles running stop signs, I think that they need to take the timber out of their eye first. And in my car I have nearly been tail-ended stopping for Pedestrians and have seen cars "cut around me" at high speed" nearly taking out the Pedestrians in the sidewalk. I am really at my wit's end. If I follow the law, I am going to get tail-ended or get someone killed when a car weaves around me. If I ignore the law, well, I am being an asshole. </p>
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<p>The worst part, instead of regulating this kind of stupid conduct, the Cops are spending all of their time writing traffic tickets to benefit a private company.<br/> <br/> <cite>carl whetherspoon said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.thechainlink.org/forum/topics/mayor-wants-to-increase-fines-for-reckless-cyclists-motorists?id=2211490%3ATopic%3A676336&page=12#2211490Comment680786"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I think this has a lot to do with the fact that cars will stop for pedestrians to cross busy streets at non-lighed intersections. It works both ways. Cars stop for people, people dont jaywalk. </p>
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