Physically/Mentally Impaired Driving (was "Outsourcing Self Control")

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 3, 2011 at 7:44pm

Maybe he's handicapped and isn't allowed to ride by the fascists who'd rather he stay home -or even up in the attic...

Permalink Reply by Vilda on January 3, 2011 at 7:57pm

We can only hope James. ;-) We can only hope.

Permalink Reply by Minh on January 3, 2011 at 8:28pm

So you want the moderator to remove posts that don't support your view?

Jason said:

This is the reason every one of these public forum fails. Because the assholes always shout the loudest drowning everyone else out. Moderators don't moderate for rudeness or common courtesy, in a vain hope that the mythical egalitarian nature of the internet will weed out the bad apples, but it just isn't so. The bad apples just take over, like bullies in a sandbox, and everyone else leaves. Because who wants to listen to this bile? The forum eventually just devolves into the lowest common denominator. It happened with Bike Forums, Chifg, and clearly chainlink is on the same arc.

Permalink Reply by Jason on January 3, 2011 at 11:30pm

Oh I don't expect the moderators to do anything. That's one of my points. And Gabe and James and crew have proved my further point as well. A few trolls band together, shout everyone else down, and then preen and backslap. That's just the eventual endpoint for these types of forums. It's a shame, but oh well.

 

And frankly I couldn't really care any less. I plan on never returning to this or any other public forum. I have better things to fill my time and mind with than this sort of juvenile buffoonery. This sort of mob mentality is useless and wholly unproductive.

Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on January 3, 2011 at 11:35pm

In this particular case, it could just be that the "moderators" have faith that people can work out their differences if given opportunity to do so. And that others can just not click on a thread once they realize it's not a happy-happy thread. As thread starter I could have closed this one, but I'm reminded of a few recent times I've been party to contentious discussions via e-mail-- in both cases someone posing as an "authority" figure demanded that the discussion -stop- rather than demonstrating leadership by finding a way to help facilitate a resolution.  Resultantly, differences never got worked out and resentments simmer, and relationships are frozen in alienation. 

I disagree with your assessment that there's an overall trend into the toilet for Chainlink.  Things slowed down dramatically around the holidays, so there's not that much variety to the active discussions at the moment.  Be part of the solution-- start an interesting thread or two.

 

Edit-- I see you posted your emotional "goodbye" post while I was composing this.

Guess you're not going to be part of the solution then.  Oh well.

Jason said:

This is the reason every one of these public forum fails. Because the assholes always shout the loudest drowning everyone else out. Moderators don't moderate for rudeness or common courtesy, in a vain hope that the mythical egalitarian nature of the internet will weed out the bad apples, but it just isn't so. The bad apples just take over, like bullies in a sandbox, and everyone else leaves. Because who wants to listen to this bile? The forum eventually just devolves into the lowest common denominator. It happened with Bike Forums, Chifg, and clearly chainlink is on the same arc.

Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on January 3, 2011 at 11:39pm

Peripherally related, but this showed up in my e-mail tonight:

 

===

JOURNAL ARTICLE REVIEW: Driving With A Cast On. Is It Safe?

Should patients in casts or splints be driving? Is it different if it is a long arm thumb spica cast or a short arm cast? Does it make a difference whether the patient is left or right handed or which side is casted? Is it harder driving forward or backing up?

A group of investigators at Vanderbilt University recently published their results of a carefully controlled study involving 30 police officers-in-training. The closed driving course required maneuvers that officers on duty would be expected to perform safely and efficiently and included backing up, cornering, and parking.

Each student was tested twice for speed and accuracy without any cast and also tested four more times in random order, twice with a long arm thumb spica cast first on one side then the other, and twice more with a short arm cast first on one side and then the other. Each student also rated the perceived difficulty and the perceived safety under each condition.

The major finding was that the long arm thumb spica cast caused significantly more distress when it was on the left arm than when it was on the right arm regardless of handedness. Nine of the 30 recruits rated the left arm "useless" and three rated their skills as "not safe" when their left elbows were immobilized. By comparison, placement of a short arm cast had modest effects on the time/accuracy scores and on the perceived difficulty and safety.

The authors surmise that with the left elbow casted, the drivers had poor steering wheel control because of interference from the driver-side door, especially when backing up and looking over the right shoulder. Some of the maneuvers required on the course would not be encountered regularly on street driving so the results might be magnified. Conversely, the results could possibly be worse on the street where moving hazards and unexpected events occur and if the driver is in pain or in a small car, particularly if it has a stick shift.

Food for thought: the authors advise more study. I agree, and this is the type of investigation that hand therapists could and should easily involve themselves in.

Read the abstract. a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20807919>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20807919" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20807919>http://www.ncbi.nlm....

Permalink Reply by Vilda on January 4, 2011 at 7:59am

Bye Jason, we'll miss you, James was on your side btw. :-)

 

Chris, what on earth does the ATA have to do with anything?

 

Thanks Howard, good article. And for the purpose of this topic that's an otherwise healthy person physically with one tired or cumbersome limb. If someone is prone to whole body muscle fatigue we could extract that they would be an inferior driver.

Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 4, 2011 at 8:00am

Howard, interesting link.  I think it depends on the driver's overall skill, knowledge and attitude and the equipment involved -and how that effects their choices about what it attempted regarding driving.

 

While I think that certain issues with physical limitations may effect a person's driving it is not as important by an order of magnitude (or more) than skill, knowledge and attitude. 

 

A bad driver will be a bad driver regardless of how "abled" they are physically.  Perhaps the most damaging handicap is stupidity.  There is no getting around stupidity no matter how many doo-dads and mechanical equipment changes are implemented.

 

Things like casts on arms and legs can be a hindrance but a smart, mindful motorist will be able to get around them with a little forethought and mindfulness and still be a safe driver.  A smart person in a leg cast would not even ATTEMPT to drive a manual transmission car  on the roads -but an automatic-transmission car might not be an issue at all.  The same thing for an arm cast.  Driving a car without power steering might not be a good idea -while a car with a ton of steering boost like my Camry where you can easily turn the wheel from lock to lock with one finger probably wouldn't be an issue at all.  Things like blinker use and related driving etiquette may or may not be a problem as well depending on how the car is laid out.   then again there are a majority of drivers out there who are just too put out to use them 90% of the time anyhow even though they ARE perfectly able to reach out with 1 little finger that oh-so-difficult three inches to use the damn thing. (yeah, I'm looking at you. If you don't use your blinker 100% of the time when in a car (those of you who do drive) then you probably ARE a bad driver).

 

And it's a matter of attitude.  You can tell the bad drivers from the good one from a mile away.  The ones who pull over to the right lane and pass a line of cars knowing that lane is disappearing in 100 yards only to shove in line again.   Everyone knows this isn't fair in any other line but somehow 20-25% of drivers think this is perfectly acceptable while driving (and don't give a flying frak about how dangerous this type of behavior is).

 

Then there are people like Jason who calls anyone who disaggres or has a different opinion a "troll."   This is the kind of thinking that is even more apparent when the line of thinking is a majority view and the "trolls" opinion trolling lies in the minority.  Kill the minority view evil trolls with FIRE!  Bring the moderators out and silence these unpopular, alternative, opposing views trolls before anyone reads them and maybe might think that there are people in the community who don't think exactly like them and might just need to logically deal with people with different priorities and ideas.

 

No, it's not good enough for the people who are offended by differing viewpoints trolls to just walk away from a certain thread or just not read the words.  They want them silenced totally so nobody else can read it.  If their personal (or worse yet) or majority viewpoint is challenged they want it SMASHED.

 

Oh, whatever.  I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion (even if it means they think that anyone who thinks differently than them should be silenced).  I'm fine with people like jason huffing and puffing and complaining "there goes the neighborhood" when a minority opinion moves in next door.  I just use a different method of judging an online community.  One that is homogeneous in thought  and has no outlying or opposing views is boring.  One that has its own Inquisition to silence and punish heresy trolls and drive them away is oppressive and soon becomes silent as the Inquisitioners never are happy with only silencing the smallest minorities and will eventually move to establish iron-clad orthodoxy.  At a certain point there is nothing left to discuss or every disagreement becomes a troll-hunt.

 

I not saying this is a "free speech" issue as this is not "public property" but is private property of the owners and maintainers of this site.  While it is a "public forum" it's not public property and they can run it with whatever rules they wish.  But by that same token how they run it will determine the quality of discussion as well as the diversity of it.  I find it interesting that those who claim to be for "diversity" on one hand are often the first to call others "trolls" when they are challenged by others who don't think the same way as them.

 

Such is life.

Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 4, 2011 at 9:18am

It's a good question too. 

 

I would also like to know what the ATA's position is on granting driving licenses to handicapped individuals. 

 

What do we do with the handicapped?

 

My guess would be that it is a hot-potato subject and the ATA chooses not to have an official position as they wouldn't want to look bad.  I can see the handwriting on the wall with this line of discussion/reasoning as it approaches a point that will eventually lead to fulfilling the Godwin principle.

 

Chris C said:

Humor me.  My question stands.

Permalink Reply by igz on January 4, 2011 at 9:52am

the truth is ugly.  we dont want to say it, and an organization will never stand up to the truth to maintain a position of neutrality and political correctness, fairness to all, accessibility to all.

 

awarding fairness to some remove fairness from other. its how it goes.

 

and if you were to speak to the ugly truth...you are labeled a fascist.

 

i guess it comes down to a question of what is the greater good.

 

James Baum said:

It's a good question too. 

 

I would also like to know what the ATA's position is on granting driving licenses to handicapped individuals. 

 

What do we do with the handicapped?

 

My guess would be that it is a hot-potato subject and the ATA chooses not to have an official position as they wouldn't want to look bad.  I can see the handwriting on the wall with this line of discussion/reasoning as it approaches a point that will eventually lead to fulfilling the Godwin principle.

 

Chris C said:

Humor me.  My question stands.

 

Permalink Reply by Far'arned Retrogrumpalunkus #63 on January 4, 2011 at 10:11am

I supose it all depends on what flavor of "truth" one subscribes too -or if they even subscribe to the "greater good" theory or Utilitarianism.  You have it right that in order to give to one group you must take away from another group or individual.

 

The world is not fair.

 

Personally, I feel the "taking" part is evil no matter how "fair" some people feel it is or how much it improves the "greater good."  I think Utilitarianism has in fact ironically done nothing  but make the world a worse place regardless if it came from the theories of Bentham, Mill, Marx, Jughashvili, or Schicklgruber.

iggi said:

the truth is ugly.  we dont want to say it, and an organization will never stand up to the truth to maintain a position of neutrality and political correctness, fairness to all, accessibility to all.

 

awarding fairness to some remove fairness from other. its how it goes.

 

and if you were to speak to the ugly truth...you are labeled a fascist.

 

i guess it comes down to a question of what is the greater good.

 

Permalink Reply by igz on January 4, 2011 at 12:02pm

utilitarianism essentially becomes self defeating, ultimately leaving nobody happy. selfishness is its greatest enemy.

James Baum said:

 

The world is not fair.

 

I think Utilitarianism has in fact ironically done nothing  but make the world a worse place regardless if it came from the theories of Bentham, Mill, Marx, Jughashvili, or Schicklgruber.

 

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