Run a red, get hit. DC Group Ride accident

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Permalink Reply by Davo on June 19, 2013 at 9:20am

Stupid cowboys dc bike party and ccm are not allycat races. I've stopped and waited for people to mass up and one of them is trying to tell people to keep going even though we are extreamly spread out. Also if you are in the front you are supposed to stop at all lights. I can't feel too bad for this guy

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Permalink Reply by JMinHP on June 19, 2013 at 4:31pm

+100.  My bad for the inapt comparison.

kiltedcelt said:

The difference between Bike Party and any Critical Mass is that under Bike Party rules, all bikes stay in the proper lane of travel and they don't ride through red lights, or cork intersections. It's sorta like Critical Mass but less dickish. I kinda wish there was Bike Party here versus CCM. I've ridden CCM a few times and I still have very mixed feelings about the sort of message it sends.

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Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on June 19, 2013 at 5:11pm

Critical Mass is essentially a rolling party where we celebrate cycling.  Any imagined message that it may send is just that-imagined.

In regard to your bike party "rules"-- I watched the video and I am having a hard time reconciling it with the rules as you're describing. Was the video altered in some way?
kiltedcelt said:

The difference between Bike Party and any Critical Mass is that under Bike Party rules, all bikes stay in the proper lane of travel and they don't ride through red lights, or cork intersections. It's sorta like Critical Mass but less dickish. I kinda wish there was Bike Party here versus CCM. I've ridden CCM a few times and I still have very mixed feelings about the sort of message it sends.

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Permalink Reply by Alex Z on June 19, 2013 at 7:43pm

I thought the Bike Party guy explained that the cyclists in the video were not following the Bike Party rules.

h' 1.0 said:

Critical Mass is essentially a rolling party where we celebrate cycling.  Any imagined message that it may send is just that-imagined.

In regard to your bike party "rules"-- I watched the video and I am having a hard time reconciling it with the rules as you're describing. Was the video altered in some way?

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Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on June 19, 2013 at 8:11pm

Yes, my point exactly.  It could just as easily be argued that anyone who behaves badly on a CM ride is also "not really on the ride."

Kind of disturbing to see two things contrasted that are essentially identical, because someone is bitterly biased against one of them.  But also very stupid of me to take the bait (regretted immediately.)

Alex Z said:

I thought the Bike Party guy explained that the cyclists in the video were not following the Bike Party rules.

h' 1.0 said:

Critical Mass is essentially a rolling party where we celebrate cycling.  Any imagined message that it may send is just that-imagined.

In regard to your bike party "rules"-- I watched the video and I am having a hard time reconciling it with the rules as you're describing. Was the video altered in some way?

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Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on June 19, 2013 at 8:12pm

Sometimes I think you don't like Critical Mass.

kiltedcelt said:

Read the original comment h' - the poster mentions these guys were a bunch of tools riding out ahead of the Bike Party ride disobeying the spirit of Bike Party. The one thing I remember about one of the CCM rides I went on was how badly the ride inconveniences some people - in this case pedestrians. There was a guy who got caught in the vanguard of the "mass celebration of bicycling" with his two dogs, apparently one of which was seriously freaked out by the whole thing. I have this indelible image burned into my memory of this frantic dog owner trying to get across the street with two dogs (not exactly small either), one of which he was having to try to carry. I felt right then like I should have turned around and gone back and helped him and apologized for the asshole behavior of the hundreds of riders who wouldn't let him pass. I still regret not going back to this day. It's shit like that which makes me think that CCM and any similar ride is nothing more than a bunch of self-serving, selfish dicks tooling around the whole city yelling "Happy Friday" at lots of people who don't seem to be pleased about the experience at all. From what I've read, Bike Party does a lot of what CM does - namely show motorists cyclists en masse without severely inconveniencing other road users. A more polite and less in-your-face version of "mass" as it were.

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Permalink Reply by Crazy David 84 Furlongs on June 20, 2013 at 9:36am

The problem with CM is either:

1.  It is intended to send a message, but the message that it actually sends is that the car driver stereotype of the Bicycle Rider is correct.   They ride without paying any attention to the traffic laws, they have no business on the street and disrupt traffic, and we should force them off the road and into paths.  OR

2.   CM is a party and we do what we want because it feels good.  This, in many ways, is a worse message as it sends the message that bicycle riders are sociopaths, that the do whatever they want to satisfy their pleasure centers and to hell with anyone else,  that do not understand the consequences of their actions and thus, again, they have no business on the street and disrupt traffic and we should force them off the road and into paths.

Either "justification" produces the same anti-cycling results.   CM is, on the whole, very very bad for the bicycle community and slows the acceptance of the bicycle.   Its a repeat of the whole viet Nam protest experience.... trading feeling good for being effective.   In contrast, properly followed, the DC concept makes a great deal more sense.  It counters the stereotype that bicyclists ignore the traffic laws.  It shows the "mass of riders" and also shows that they can be a part of the traffic pattern.   CM is bad.  The DC ride is good.... except for the fact that inevitably the "feeling good sociopaths" would end up turning it into another CM...

h' 1.0 said:

Critical Mass is essentially a rolling party where we celebrate cycling.  Any imagined message that it may send is just that-imagined.

In regard to your bike party "rules"-- I watched the video and I am having a hard time reconciling it with the rules as you're describing. Was the video altered in some way?
kiltedcelt said:

The difference between Bike Party and any Critical Mass is that under Bike Party rules, all bikes stay in the proper lane of travel and they don't ride through red lights, or cork intersections. It's sorta like Critical Mass but less dickish. I kinda wish there was Bike Party here versus CCM. I've ridden CCM a few times and I still have very mixed feelings about the sort of message it sends.

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Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on June 20, 2013 at 10:42am

I have barely missed a CCM ride since about 2002, and from my perspective your either/or is way off the mark. Everyone who attends does so for their own reason, and not everyone who does is interested in the message their participation may send to a potential observer.

 

David crZven 10.6 said:

The problem with CM is either:

1.  It is intended to send a message, but the message that it actually sends is that the car driver stereotype of the Bicycle Rider is correct.   They ride without paying any attention to the traffic laws, they have no business on the street and disrupt traffic, and we should force them off the road and into paths.  OR

2.   CM is a party and we do what we want because it feels good.  This, in many ways, is a worse message as it sends the message that bicycle riders are sociopaths, that the do whatever they want to satisfy their pleasure centers and to hell with anyone else,  that do not understand the consequences of their actions and thus, again, they have no business on the street and disrupt traffic and we should force them off the road and into paths.

Either "justification" produces the same anti-cycling results.   CM is, on the whole, very very bad for the bicycle community and slows the acceptance of the bicycle.   Its a repeat of the whole viet Nam protest experience.... trading feeling good for being effective.   In contrast, properly followed, the DC concept makes a great deal more sense.  It counters the stereotype that bicyclists ignore the traffic laws.  It shows the "mass of riders" and also shows that they can be a part of the traffic pattern.   CM is bad.  The DC ride is good.... except for the fact that inevitably the "feeling good sociopaths" would end up turning it into another CM...

h' 1.0 said:

Critical Mass is essentially a rolling party where we celebrate cycling.  Any imagined message that it may send is just that-imagined.

In regard to your bike party "rules"-- I watched the video and I am having a hard time reconciling it with the rules as you're describing. Was the video altered in some way?
kiltedcelt said:

The difference between Bike Party and any Critical Mass is that under Bike Party rules, all bikes stay in the proper lane of travel and they don't ride through red lights, or cork intersections. It's sorta like Critical Mass but less dickish. I kinda wish there was Bike Party here versus CCM. I've ridden CCM a few times and I still have very mixed feelings about the sort of message it sends.

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Permalink Reply by Crazy David 84 Furlongs on June 20, 2013 at 10:58am

Yes.  The CM consists of two (or maybe three) motivations.

Motivation 1.   I am sending a message about bicycles.  

Motivation 2.  I don't care about messages and am doing it because it is fun.

Motivation 3.  I am secretly pro-car.

The point is that it does not matter the motivation.   If the first, the actual message being sent is "Bicycle Riders don't care about rules and your stereotype of us is correct".

If the second, the message is "I am a socio-path and do what feels good without taking into account the impact of my behavior on the population as a whole".  

If the third,  "I have not figured out an effective way to state my position".

The impact of critical mass is bad and thinking and intelligent bicycle riders should be strongly opposed to it.

h' 1.0 said:

I have barely missed a CCM ride since about 2002, and from my perspective your either/or is way off the mark. Everyone who attends does so for their own reason, and not everyone who does is interested in the message their participation may send to a potential observer.

 

David crZven 10.6 said:

The problem with CM is either:

1.  It is intended to send a message, but the message that it actually sends is that the car driver stereotype of the Bicycle Rider is correct.   They ride without paying any attention to the traffic laws, they have no business on the street and disrupt traffic, and we should force them off the road and into paths.  OR

2.   CM is a party and we do what we want because it feels good.  This, in many ways, is a worse message as it sends the message that bicycle riders are sociopaths, that the do whatever they want to satisfy their pleasure centers and to hell with anyone else,  that do not understand the consequences of their actions and thus, again, they have no business on the street and disrupt traffic and we should force them off the road and into paths.

Either "justification" produces the same anti-cycling results.   CM is, on the whole, very very bad for the bicycle community and slows the acceptance of the bicycle.   Its a repeat of the whole viet Nam protest experience.... trading feeling good for being effective.   In contrast, properly followed, the DC concept makes a great deal more sense.  It counters the stereotype that bicyclists ignore the traffic laws.  It shows the "mass of riders" and also shows that they can be a part of the traffic pattern.   CM is bad.  The DC ride is good.... except for the fact that inevitably the "feeling good sociopaths" would end up turning it into another CM...

h' 1.0 said:

Critical Mass is essentially a rolling party where we celebrate cycling.  Any imagined message that it may send is just that-imagined.

In regard to your bike party "rules"-- I watched the video and I am having a hard time reconciling it with the rules as you're describing. Was the video altered in some way?
kiltedcelt said:

The difference between Bike Party and any Critical Mass is that under Bike Party rules, all bikes stay in the proper lane of travel and they don't ride through red lights, or cork intersections. It's sorta like Critical Mass but less dickish. I kinda wish there was Bike Party here versus CCM. I've ridden CCM a few times and I still have very mixed feelings about the sort of message it sends.

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Permalink Reply by Vitaliy on June 20, 2013 at 5:26pm

I second that. Corking makes the ride seem like its a revolutionary stance when a cyclist is blocking a vehicle. Evenmoreso, many dont realize how symbolic that act is. Think of corking as this: a petty cyclist is stopping the gargantuan car. But, what kind of meaning does that imply? Especially on those drivers that get corked. 

h' 1.0 said:

Critical Mass is essentially a rolling party where we celebrate cycling.  Any imagined message that it may send is just that-imagined.

In regard to your bike party "rules"-- I watched the video and I am having a hard time reconciling it with the rules as you're describing. Was the video altered in some way?
kiltedcelt said:

The difference between Bike Party and any Critical Mass is that under Bike Party rules, all bikes stay in the proper lane of travel and they don't ride through red lights, or cork intersections. It's sorta like Critical Mass but less dickish. I kinda wish there was Bike Party here versus CCM. I've ridden CCM a few times and I still have very mixed feelings about the sort of message it sends.

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