May Critical Mass

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on May 30, 2014 at 3:53pm

Andrew is the guy who most often films the "front-to-backs" and he said in this thread that the longest he'd filmed was 15 minutes. Congrats, you found that one.

Unless you are asserting that the video is doctored, all of these other guesses don't mean much. I don't quite get why you persist in calling attention to your own inaccuracy. 
 
Tristan Jackson said:

That may be true. But Im certainly not trying to criticize CM with "a healthy dose of untruths". To lend credence to my story, I googled "chicago critical mass delays". The fifth result down is a Yelp review from woman claiming that she was delayed during the summer of 2011 for 45 minutes by a CM:

Of course, this reviewer could be either mistaken or lying too. Perhaps, its just a disgruntled driver who hates CM. But the Chicago CM FAQ page claims that the average speed of a critical mass is 5 mph:

And the route development page has information cross posted from Chainlink written by H3 claiming that a CM can stretch for longer than 2 miles:

So, deductively, I could conclude that a 2 mile long stretch of cyclists traveling at 5 mph would take 24 minutes to pass a fixed point. Of course, my deductive argument could have problems with soundness of the premises even if the logic is valid. However, other websites seem to confirm my time estimate. For instance, the popular Chicago blog the Expired Meter estimated the average delay to be between 10 and 30 minutes. And Chainlink user Dan Korn, who regularly rides the CM, admits the delay can stretch to 20 minutes in the summer:

And Chainlink user Joel claims seeing a CM on Roosevelt, the very same street that I was stuck on, that was so congested that there was really "no where" for anyone to move. And here's a YouTube video from Andrew Bedno filmed from a fix point showing 15 continuous minutes of cyclists passing:

And that was filmed at night with low traffic. Conceivably, at rush hour, at the intersection of Roosevelt and Wabash, a CM could take substantially longer than 15 minutes to pass a fixed point.

So I think Ive built here a fairly strong case that my delay could indeed have been greater than 10 minutes. Of course, I could still be mistaken, or I could just be straight lying. But the polite thing to do (read the non-critical-masshole thing to do) would be to charitably accept the possibility that I really did have such an experience. And, then from there, you could explain why CM is a worthwhile event some of the unfortunate experiences people like me have experienced. :)

h' 1.0 said:

I'm sure there are some valid criticisms of Critical Mass, but its critics can never seem to make them without throwing in a healthy dose of untruths.

Tristan Jackson said:

Umm... No. And If you can't be respectful in this conversation, then it's hard to believe you're respectful to others on the road either. :)


h' 1.0 said:

So... 12 minutes?

Tristan Jackson said:

I definitely couldn't turn around. We, the cars, were tightly packed next to each other. Many drivers simply turned off their engines because there was no going anywhere. And it definitely took longer than 10 minutes for all the cyclists to clear the intersection because there was a long, seemingly never ending tail of buffoons taking their sweet time.


Michelle Milham said:

Maybe there was a backup after the mass had already passed where this person didn't make it through lights? but honestly, at more than ten minutes the other direction should be clear enough to turn around and try a different street, or drive in the opposite direction of the mass to find where it's ended and cross there. 

h' 1.0 said:

More than half an hour?

Someone usually jumps out of the ride and films a "front to back" video of the whole mass, and typically the larger rides take somewhere around 10 minutes total to pass. And then automobile  traffic is immediately moving afterwards.

Do you remember what month/year that was?
 
Tristan Jackson said:

Please excuse my ignorance but what exactly is critical mass about? I'm a cyclist. I love cycling. And, of course, I respect cyclists. But I'm also a driver. And, one time, I got stuck at an intersection waiting for a Critical Mass for more than a half hour while I had to pee really bad. If the ride is meant to raise awareness about cyclists, then I'm not sure that the ride achieves that goal in positive way. To me, respect between cyclists and drivers is achieved through consciously doing our best, both as drivers and as cyclists, to share the road. Purposefully causing congestion isn't respectful, IMO.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tristan Jackson on May 30, 2014 at 3:53pm

You dont see the difference between a CM where people seemingly intentionally creating traffic jams and random individuals, both cyclists and drivers, unintentionally creating traffic jams? Im a cyclist, dude. I dont mean to control anybody here. Im only asking what the point of a CM is.

Bob Kastigar said:

A large number of cars converging at the same intersection create a traffic jam.  A large number of bikes converging at the same intersection create a traffic jam.

Why do you keep blaming the bikes for causing traffic jams?  This isn't us-vs-them. 

Excessive cars create traffic jams.  Excessive bikes create traffic jams.  Why do you keep insisting on controlling only the bikes?

Tristan Jackson said:

If a bunch of people in cars converged on the same intersection intentionally creating traffic to raise awareness about their existence, then, yeah, that would suck. But I think seeing this from a us vs them, bikes vs cars, perspective is a mistake.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tristan Jackson on May 30, 2014 at 3:57pm

Look, masshole, that was filmed at night with low traffic. You cant imagine it taking longer with traffic? How about the fact that just deductively it would take 24 minutes for a 2 mile stretch of cyclists to pass a fixed point? Or how about the other users on Chainlink who admit delays longer than 10 minutes? Are you on purpose being obtuse?

h' 1.0 said:

Andrew is the guy who most often films the "front-to-backs" and he said in this thread that the longest he'd filmed was 15 minutes. Congrats, you found that one.

Unless you are asserting that the video is doctored, all of these other guesses don't mean much. I don't quite get why you persist in calling attention to your own inaccuracy. 
 
Tristan Jackson said:

That may be true. But Im certainly not trying to criticize CM with "a healthy dose of untruths". To lend credence to my story, I googled "chicago critical mass delays". The fifth result down is a Yelp review from woman claiming that she was delayed during the summer of 2011 for 45 minutes by a CM:

Of course, this reviewer could be either mistaken or lying too. Perhaps, its just a disgruntled driver who hates CM. But the Chicago CM FAQ page claims that the average speed of a critical mass is 5 mph:

And the route development page has information cross posted from Chainlink written by H3 claiming that a CM can stretch for longer than 2 miles:

So, deductively, I could conclude that a 2 mile long stretch of cyclists traveling at 5 mph would take 24 minutes to pass a fixed point. Of course, my deductive argument could have problems with soundness of the premises even if the logic is valid. However, other websites seem to confirm my time estimate. For instance, the popular Chicago blog the Expired Meter estimated the average delay to be between 10 and 30 minutes. And Chainlink user Dan Korn, who regularly rides the CM, admits the delay can stretch to 20 minutes in the summer:

And Chainlink user Joel claims seeing a CM on Roosevelt, the very same street that I was stuck on, that was so congested that there was really "no where" for anyone to move. And here's a YouTube video from Andrew Bedno filmed from a fix point showing 15 continuous minutes of cyclists passing:

And that was filmed at night with low traffic. Conceivably, at rush hour, at the intersection of Roosevelt and Wabash, a CM could take substantially longer than 15 minutes to pass a fixed point.

So I think Ive built here a fairly strong case that my delay could indeed have been greater than 10 minutes. Of course, I could still be mistaken, or I could just be straight lying. But the polite thing to do (read the non-critical-masshole thing to do) would be to charitably accept the possibility that I really did have such an experience. And, then from there, you could explain why CM is a worthwhile event some of the unfortunate experiences people like me have experienced. :)

h' 1.0 said:

I'm sure there are some valid criticisms of Critical Mass, but its critics can never seem to make them without throwing in a healthy dose of untruths.

Tristan Jackson said:

Umm... No. And If you can't be respectful in this conversation, then it's hard to believe you're respectful to others on the road either. :)


h' 1.0 said:

So... 12 minutes?

Tristan Jackson said:

I definitely couldn't turn around. We, the cars, were tightly packed next to each other. Many drivers simply turned off their engines because there was no going anywhere. And it definitely took longer than 10 minutes for all the cyclists to clear the intersection because there was a long, seemingly never ending tail of buffoons taking their sweet time.


Michelle Milham said:

Maybe there was a backup after the mass had already passed where this person didn't make it through lights? but honestly, at more than ten minutes the other direction should be clear enough to turn around and try a different street, or drive in the opposite direction of the mass to find where it's ended and cross there. 

h' 1.0 said:

More than half an hour?

Someone usually jumps out of the ride and films a "front to back" video of the whole mass, and typically the larger rides take somewhere around 10 minutes total to pass. And then automobile  traffic is immediately moving afterwards.

Do you remember what month/year that was?
 
Tristan Jackson said:

Please excuse my ignorance but what exactly is critical mass about? I'm a cyclist. I love cycling. And, of course, I respect cyclists. But I'm also a driver. And, one time, I got stuck at an intersection waiting for a Critical Mass for more than a half hour while I had to pee really bad. If the ride is meant to raise awareness about cyclists, then I'm not sure that the ride achieves that goal in positive way. To me, respect between cyclists and drivers is achieved through consciously doing our best, both as drivers and as cyclists, to share the road. Purposefully causing congestion isn't respectful, IMO.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on May 30, 2014 at 3:58pm

I do not ride CM with the intent of creating traffic jams, and most others I know don't either. You're making some very shaky assumptions about why the ride exists and why people participate.  
 
Tristan Jackson said:

You dont see the difference between a CM where people seemingly intentionally creating traffic jams

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tristan Jackson on May 30, 2014 at 4:06pm

Perhaps, I am making some shaky assumptions. But remember I came here asking why people think CMs are worth while. I meant that as an honest inquiry. And, again, the polite thing to do would of been to accept that my experience might of happened and then enlightened me on why CMs are worthwhile. Instead, you're behaving overly defensive. 

h' 1.0 said:

I do not ride CM with the intent of creating traffic jams, and most others I know don't either. You're making some very shaky assumptions about why the ride exists and why people participate.  
 
Tristan Jackson said:

You dont see the difference between a CM where people seemingly intentionally creating traffic jams

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by h' Zerocats on May 30, 2014 at 4:41pm

I am optimistic that your fighting spirit can be rechanneled to benefit the cause of cycling.

I'm heading out to CCM now-- will I see you there?

 
Tristan Jackson said:

Perhaps, I am making some shaky assumptions. But remember I came here asking why people think CMs are worth while. I meant that as an honest inquiry. And, again, the polite thing to do would of been to accept that my experience might of happened and then enlightened me on why CMs are worthwhile. Instead, you're behaving overly defensive. 

h' 1.0 said:

I do not ride CM with the intent of creating traffic jams, and most others I know don't either. You're making some very shaky assumptions about why the ride exists and why people participate.  
 
Tristan Jackson said:

You dont see the difference between a CM where people seemingly intentionally creating traffic jams

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tristan Jackson on May 30, 2014 at 5:02pm

I'm optimistic that with some quiet self-reflection you might serve the cause of cycling better. And, perhaps, you'll see me at a CCM when I learn how exactly CM serves any cause whatsoever. Have a good ride though! :)

h' 1.0 said:

I am optimistic that your fighting spirit can be rechanneled to benefit the cause of cycling.

I'm heading out to CCM now-- will I see you there?

 
Tristan Jackson said:

Perhaps, I am making some shaky assumptions. But remember I came here asking why people think CMs are worth while. I meant that as an honest inquiry. And, again, the polite thing to do would of been to accept that my experience might of happened and then enlightened me on why CMs are worthwhile. Instead, you're behaving overly defensive. 

h' 1.0 said:

I do not ride CM with the intent of creating traffic jams, and most others I know don't either. You're making some very shaky assumptions about why the ride exists and why people participate.  
 
Tristan Jackson said:

You dont see the difference between a CM where people seemingly intentionally creating traffic jams

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Bob Kastigar on May 31, 2014 at 12:47pm

A few pictures from the ride:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kastigar/sets/72157644927864721/

(Circling Wrigley Field was a good idea, but we should have turned right (east) on Addison and rode around COUNTER-clockwise, continuing west on Addison after going north on Sheffield and west on Waveland back to Clark.

The jam-up just caused many to simply follow the pack onto Addison directly. )

What cause does CCM serve:  It's a bike ride, nothing more complicated that that.  It more fun to ride with others than to ride alone.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Crazy David 84 Furlongs on June 2, 2014 at 11:37am

The problem with the last comment (in addition to the fact that it also directly contradicts the comments of those who claim that CM has a "purpose") is that "fun" is not a justification for intentionally imposing harm and delay on third parties and building ill will toward the very community of which you are a member. 

And as someone who already has to deal with Cubs traffic, it is not appreciated to have the traffic messed up on non-game days by a bunch of self-indulgent people.

Certainly you would agree that if my idea of "fun" were to spread piles of uncomposted manure across the bike lanes was improper.  Or if my idea of "fun" as  a car driver were to "block" the bike lanes to allow cars to move forward... or anyone of many other antisocial behaviors.... 

CM is a bad thing for the bicycle community and the larger it gets the worse it is for the bicycling community.   Every time anyone participates in CM, a wood fairy loses its wings...

Bob Kastigar said:

A few pictures from the ride:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kastigar/sets/72157644927864721/

(Circling Wrigley Field was a good idea, but we should have turned right (east) on Addison and rode around COUNTER-clockwise, continuing west on Addison after going north on Sheffield and west on Waveland back to Clark.

The jam-up just caused many to simply follow the pack onto Addison directly. )

What cause does CCM serve:  It's a bike ride, nothing more complicated that that.  It more fun to ride with others than to ride alone.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Davo on June 2, 2014 at 12:05pm

CM "purpose" is different for each individual that experiences it. To some its a protest, to some its fun, to some its annoying, to some its entertaining. Their is no real way to tell someone what its about. Try it sometime, you may or may not like it; but at least then you can form a better opinion from experiencing it on that end rather than just saying that its the worst thing ever.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Michelle Milham on June 2, 2014 at 12:51pm

Agreed. Especially on the "don't knock it till you've tried it" front. 

Davo said:

CM "purpose" is different for each individual that experiences it. To some its a protest, to some its fun, to some its annoying, to some its entertaining. Their is no real way to tell someone what its about. Try it sometime, you may or may not like it; but at least then you can form a better opinion from experiencing it on that end rather than just saying that its the worst thing ever.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Crazy David 84 Furlongs on June 2, 2014 at 1:09pm

Try it first?  That has to rank up with the most naive comments ever posted on the internet.   My primary points have never been that the members of CM don't "enjoy" what they are doing.    Quite to the contrary, I am willing to concede that for some of the people that engage in Critical Mass it is the single most exciting and rewarding thing in their life.   I'll even concede the point that for others it helps bring back sparkly unicorns to life...   Those points are wholly irrelevant to the discussion.  Just because something "feels good" doesn't mean that it should be done.  

What is clear and incontestable (except to the mentally challenged or intentionally obtuse)  are the following points:

1.   The percentage of the population that bicycles for more than weekend recreation is incredibly small.

2.  The percentage of the population that use cars and/or motorized vehicles (Buses) for transportation is a large share.

3.  Critical Mass causes massive disruptions which greatly slow the large share of the population from going where they are going.

4.   The large share of the population, as evidenced by published and anecdotal evidence, do not like being badly delayed because of individuals "playing" or "having fun". 

5.   When the large share of the population feels that the voluntary activities of a microshare of the population are causing them irritation, and if that irritation is large enough, they act to stop it.

6.   If the super majority of the population decides that something should be stopped, it is stopped and the people that don't stop are criminals.

Ergo:

CM makes it more likely that the large share of the population will look with dis-favor on the bicycle segment and will regulate it... perhaps to the point of destroying it...

And we have seen the start of movements to do this.....   the poll showing the disapproval of Rahm with unsolicited comments about hating Bike Lanes, the comments by John Kass (and others) suggesting the creation of a system of tags, permits and licenses for bicycling, and so on.    Has the tide turned against Bicycles?  No.  But we can see clear signs that it might.   And we should not take steps to push the tide in the wrong direction.

CM - The best friends of the Auto Industry...

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• 5
• 6
• Next ›
• Page