Hey Chainlink, know what I think is lame?
When a website that claims to be promoting local cycling in the city of Chicago has a banner ad for a site which is one of the many internet discount outlets that make it hard for local bike shops.
Way to go Chainlink, bravo. Is the advertising dollar worth making things harder on the local shops here in Chicago?
Is this site about serving the local community or is it about being a profit center for it's owner?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David on -
This brings up something I've been really curious about. Why do Chicago LBS's have such a terrible selection of good commuter accessories? I would have thought that things like decent panniers have huge markups and are cash cows for an LBS, but there's only a handful of shops in town where you can buy something better than Banjo or Avenir, and even in those there's generally not much choice. The idea of going to a Chicago LBS to, say, compare two or three good laptop panniers really isn't a possibility. There's a thread going on next door about local sources for things like the PDW cupholder or good eyeglass mirrors, kind of obvious stuff for commuters I would have thought.
I didn't think much of this before, but this summer I was in Quebec, a relatively tiny city of 500K or so, and even the smallest out-of-the-way bike shop had a wide selection of good quality panniers, handlebar bags, etc., good quality stuff for people commuting to something other than a messenger job. It really stunned me. The smallest stores I saw had a better selection than the even best stores here. I've had the same experience in many other cities (all non-US, admittedly).
I'm not complaining, I'm just curious why this is. Is it that the bike market is much more tilted toward the economic low-end here? Or is it that bike style here still leans strongly toward the hipster/fixie/messenger low-cost look, or perhaps that the crime rate makes people avoid nicer accessories? Maybe shops here have lower capitalization and higher rents that don't allow for a larger inventory? Or is it the tax structure that pushes people online for higher-cost items? Or is it something to do with how manufacturers provide inventory here (i.e., purchase vs. consignment or something)?
James BlackHeron said:Seriously, I don't really think there are ANY LBS's out there pushing dyno-hub systems much less carry many decent dyno systems or components. This alone is one of the many reasons I prefer buying stuff online because the LBS's in Chicago do not really cater to such things. Is it because there isn't much demand or because they just don't supply anything -chicken or egg?
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Permalink Reply by in it to win it 8.0 mi on -
I have an obligation to get my bike stuff at the best price possible. If BIKE NASHBAR or BIKESDIRECT get me the same product at 1/2 the cost, it is my obligation to me to keep my $$ in my account.
See, you and I disagree about what obligation means.
notoriousDUG said:...a local bike shop.
Yes, obviously, I have a vested interest in local bike shops, specifically the one I work at, but this is nothing new. Even before I worked in the industry I have been a proponent of shopping via a local shop vs. online purchases. I order almost nothing, bike related or otherwise, online because I think of it as detrimental to local businesses and to a small extent the local economy. Buying local is, in my opinion, 'the right thing to do' with your purchasing power.
I also feel that cyclists, as part of the small, often under serviced, community have an obligation to try and support local shops. By extension The Chainlink, as a online cycling community has a certain obligation to help out local shops over out of state online businesses.
Michael A said:As HE uses the site for free advertising to promote............
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Permalink Reply by notoriousDUG on -
OK, I want to say this again just to be crystal clear on it because I think people are misinterpreting what I am saying.
I have no issue with Julie making money off of this site; trying to turn a website or message board into a for profit site usually results in a good message board because the owner wants to pay attention. I used to get paid by a service that message board owners paid to generate traffic so they were able to sell ad-space; it is a bigger industry than you would suspect. Believe it or not you actually CAN make some money of a forum once it crests about 2,500 members and has a decent amount of traffic; Julie has not gone with a few of the routes that could do that, I hope because they do not let you control the ads that appear, and I appreciate that. I just think that if she is keeping advertising selective it is a shame to promote things that move money out of Chicago.
Sol said:It is my understanding that the Chainlink has cost Julie way more money than it has produced. She doesn't get paid anything for the time she spends managing the site. She is just trying to break even without charging a fee to users so the site doesn't cost her any money. Even if she were making some money from the site, it would not bother me in the least. Think of all of the Chainlinkers who have moved away and commented that they wished there was a similar site in their new home towns. I for one am very appreciative of the fact that the site exists at all, even with the new ads which I mostly just ignore. Thank you Julie for all your hard work and effort.
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Permalink Reply by notoriousDUG on
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There are shops that have stuff like that and they try very hard to have that stuff in stock but here is the issue:
It does not sell.
Stuff like that hangs on the wall for months and months and many shops cannot always afford to have inventory that does not move out the door. It would be great to offer every retail option out there for all sorts of gear but it is not a financial reality for most shops.
I think there is one thing it is important to realize; as members of the cycling community and active riders we here all have a very skewed perception of bike shop clientele. Again, I cannot speak for all shops but I can speak for where I work. I would say that 75% of the year or more the vast majority of our customers are not really very active cyclists. Oh sure, you see a lot of bikes on the street but how many of them are 'into' bikes or care about bikes, the community or anything beyond getting to work? Just look at the membership on this site! The Chainlink has close to 6,500 members but how many of them do you see posting actively? I bet that number is under 100.
It's hard to wrap your mind around but even though there are a ton of cyclists here int he city the number of cyclists who are 4 season commuting and using a bike for utilitarian means are still a very small group. When I started working at bike shops I imagined meeting tons of people just like me who biked everywhere and were really dedicated to it...
Yeah, not so much. It's a small portion, a third or less, who are the people looking for commuter type stuff like lap top bags or nice fenders so with a limited budget and limited space guess what gets cut?
David said:This brings up something I've been really curious about. Why do Chicago LBS's have such a terrible selection of good commuter accessories? I would have thought that things like decent panniers have huge markups and are cash cows for an LBS, but there's only a handful of shops in town where you can buy something better than Banjo or Avenir, and even in those there's generally not much choice. The idea of going to a Chicago LBS to, say, compare two or three good laptop panniers really isn't a possibility. There's a thread going on next door about local sources for things like the PDW cupholder or good eyeglass mirrors, kind of obvious stuff for commuters I would have thought.
I didn't think much of this before, but this summer I was in Quebec, a relatively tiny city of 500K or so, and even the smallest out-of-the-way bike shop had a wide selection of good quality panniers, handlebar bags, etc., good quality stuff for people commuting to something other than a messenger job. It really stunned me. The smallest stores I saw had a better selection than the even best stores here. I've had the same experience in many other cities (all non-US, admittedly).
I'm not complaining, I'm just curious why this is. Is it that the bike market is much more tilted toward the economic low-end here? Or is it that bike style here still leans strongly toward the hipster/fixie/messenger low-cost look, or perhaps that the crime rate makes people avoid nicer accessories? Maybe shops here have lower capitalization and higher rents that don't allow for a larger inventory? Or is it the tax structure that pushes people online for higher-cost items? Or is it something to do with how manufacturers provide inventory here (i.e., purchase vs. consignment or something)?
James BlackHeron said:Seriously, I don't really think there are ANY LBS's out there pushing dyno-hub systems much less carry many decent dyno systems or components. This alone is one of the many reasons I prefer buying stuff online because the LBS's in Chicago do not really cater to such things. Is it because there isn't much demand or because they just don't supply anything -chicken or egg?
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Permalink Reply by notoriousDUG on
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That is totally your right but it still makes me sad.
But then it makes me sad to see people buy anything online vs. a brick and mortar store. It also makes me sad to see people shop by price and nothing else.
in it to win it said:I have an obligation to get my bike stuff at the best price possible. If BIKE NASHBAR or BIKESDIRECT get me the same product at 1/2 the cost, it is my obligation to me to keep my $$ in my account.
See, you and I disagree about what obligation means.
notoriousDUG said:...a local bike shop.
Yes, obviously, I have a vested interest in local bike shops, specifically the one I work at, but this is nothing new. Even before I worked in the industry I have been a proponent of shopping via a local shop vs. online purchases. I order almost nothing, bike related or otherwise, online because I think of it as detrimental to local businesses and to a small extent the local economy. Buying local is, in my opinion, 'the right thing to do' with your purchasing power.
I also feel that cyclists, as part of the small, often under serviced, community have an obligation to try and support local shops. By extension The Chainlink, as a online cycling community has a certain obligation to help out local shops over out of state online businesses.
Michael A said:As HE uses the site for free advertising to promote............
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Permalink Reply by jennifer james on
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I hesitate to comment on this thread. Please don't bash the Rapid on Halstead. We go to Irv's often- (in Pilsen) and send any friends looking for great kid bike decorations there too. The arrival of the Rapid Transit marked a major change in the University business district. Chris and Justyna hosted a meeting there last winter that marked the first small crucial change in our Alderman's understanding of how bikes could benefit our ward and now look- we have a protected lane on 18th and thanks to Sram and Bikes Belong Ald. Solis has been to Amsterdam. We need that shop in our neighborhood as there are things there I can't get easily at Irv's. Outside of Peter White for dynos- even our kids ride with them- we shop totally local because the money stays here and we need the shops--from Blue Island to Rodgers Park. Rapid has ordered from Peter White for us as well and given us the same prices. Blue City Cycles and Working Bikes also hosted Streets for Cycling meetings in this area.
Most other local shops can tell you they see us there as well. Rapid on North fixed a flat for me for nothing last summer while I was on the Critical Lass.
As the Mayor gets more infrastructure in, these shops will be even more important neighborhood spots for helping people new to riding get questions answered and get what they need. It costs small shops more to be real people in a shop and they give far more to our city in the end then the internet stores.
(Many Thanks to Julie for the Chainlink!)
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Permalink Reply by David on
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Yes, I understand your points, but do you have any thoughts/insights/ideas on why this is? That was my question after all. I understand the reasoning that might go into a shop owner not carrying these items, the question is what is different between the shop here and the equivalent shop in other cities.
Is the difference on the demand side because the cycling community in Chicago is so different than the cycling community in many non-US cities? Or is the difference on the supply side because Chicago LBS owners can't afford to hold onto low-volume inventory items for long periods? Or is it perhaps something to do with the tax structure?
Again, the question isn't "why don't shops here carry these items?". I'm not complaining about it. The question is "what is different here that leads to shops not carrying these items even though these items are carried in shops in many other cities I've been to".
notoriousDUG said:
There are shops that have stuff like that and they try very hard to have that stuff in stock but here is the issue:
It does not sell.
Stuff like that hangs on the wall for months and months and many shops cannot always afford to have inventory that does not move out the door. It would be great to offer every retail option out there for all sorts of gear but it is not a financial reality for most shops.
I think there is one thing it is important to realize; as members of the cycling community and active riders we here all have a very skewed perception of bike shop clientele. Again, I cannot speak for all shops but I can speak for where I work. I would say that 75% of the year or more the vast majority of our customers are not really very active cyclists. Oh sure, you see a lot of bikes on the street but how many of them are 'into' bikes or care about bikes, the community or anything beyond getting to work? Just look at the membership on this site! The Chainlink has close to 6,500 members but how many of them do you see posting actively? I bet that number is under 100.
It's hard to wrap your mind around but even though there are a ton of cyclists here int he city the number of cyclists who are 4 season commuting and using a bike for utilitarian means are still a very small group. When I started working at bike shops I imagined meeting tons of people just like me who biked everywhere and were really dedicated to it...
Yeah, not so much. It's a small portion, a third or less, who are the people looking for commuter type stuff like lap top bags or nice fenders so with a limited budget and limited space guess what gets cut?
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Permalink Reply by Adam "Cezar" Jenkins on -
I understand your sentiment Dug, but the way you said it was assholish and trollish. It's full of anger, sarcasm, and unfair accusations.
I had thought better of you. I really did.
I think you owe an apology to Julie. You could have emailed her and asked instead of trolling your way about it. I think she would have changed it for you, or eased your concerns. Even publicly you could have been tactful about it, but you weren't, you were and ass.
I am seriously disappointed in you.
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Permalink Reply by Bernard Joseph Hannigan on -
Jennifer, I was not bashing Rapid, I was simply sharing my unfortunate experience of dealing with them.
jennifer james said:I hesitate to comment on this thread. Please don't bash the Rapid on Halstead. We go to Irv's often- (in Pilsen) and send any friends looking for great kid bike decorations there too. The arrival of the Rapid Transit marked a major change in the University business district. Chris and Justyna hosted a meeting there last winter that marked the first small crucial change in our Alderman's understanding of how bikes could benefit our ward and now look- we have a protected lane on 18th and thanks to Sram and Bikes Belong Ald. Solis has been to Amsterdam. We need that shop in our neighborhood as there are things there I can't get easily at Irv's. Outside of Peter White for dynos- even our kids ride with them- we shop totally local because the money stays here and we need the shops--from Blue Island to Rodgers Park. Rapid has ordered from Peter White for us as well and given us the same prices. Blue City Cycles and Working Bikes also hosted Streets for Cycling meetings in this area.
Most other local shops can tell you they see us there as well. Rapid on North fixed a flat for me for nothing last summer while I was on the Critical Lass.
As the Mayor gets more infrastructure in, these shops will be even more important neighborhood spots for helping people new to riding get questions answered and get what they need. It costs small shops more to be real people in a shop and they give far more to our city in the end then the internet stores.
(Many Thanks to Julie for the Chainlink!)
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Permalink Reply by Craig S. on -
I always like it when Dug posts. The pot gets stirred and I typically agree with Dug on a lot of topics.
Regarding the ratio of members who post on the forum to the number of Chainlink members; it is always the same people posting and then any type of topic thread usually degenerates into an internet fight which is fun to witness but also a big waste of time.
I'd post my irrational thoughts more often if there were more topics concerning bacon and cocktails.
Carry on!
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Permalink Reply by Joel on -
When all other factors are equal, price tends to be the deciding one. I feel a local shop can provide a few important advantages,
1. Immediacy: walk out with the product in minutes
2. Service: recommendations, installation, tuning
3. Trying it: you can actually handle the product to check it out
Of course, they don't always provide these. If the product isn't in stock, they have to order it, call me, and then I get to go pick it up. If I order online, it ships to my door and saves me time. Service? For some things it really matters. Getting a bike properly setup and fit is important. Installing an accessory? Usually less so -- especially since it is rarely free and something I can do myself. It is easier to compare headlights online and they are trivial to install. There are some things that you really need to check out in person: clothes, bags, helmets, and probably others. Physical stores clearly win out here, unless of course they don't have anything in stock.
So if people are looking for nice commuter stuff, what do they do? You say it isn't possible for the stores to keep stuff in stock, so the store loses their only real advantages over online retailers -- with or without cost savings. The store is reduced to a middle man for a online store.
notoriousDUG said:But then it makes me sad to see people buy anything online vs. a brick and mortar store. It also makes me sad to see people shop by price and nothing else.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel G on -
Your enthusiasm for this "obligation", as you describe it, will not make you (or anyone you know) wealthy. Go ahead and watch your neighborhood fall apart as local businesses shutter their doors one-by-one and tax revenues spiral. And better pray that your treasured globalized economy is able to keep your millions of tractor-trailers full of plastic crap on the interstates when gasoline hits nine dollars. Your attitude is pessimistic conservatism and nothing more. Citizens protect and support their neighbors. Consumers pursue aggressively their so-called obligation to sit on their pile of greenbacks and jealously guard it against all invasion. Unless you are so foolish as to be actually waiting for the money you send to Bentonville, AR to trickle back down to Logan Square, this is not an economic philosophy. Just short-sighted selfishness.
in it to win it said:I have an obligation to get my bike stuff at the best price possible. If BIKE NASHBAR or BIKESDIRECT get me the same product at 1/2 the cost, it is my obligation to me to keep my $$ in my account.
See, you and I disagree about what obligation means.
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